Tuesday, July 7, 2009

A Window In The Ghetto.

One of the more baffling elements of Linux distributions is their constant relegation of scripting languages to the command line ghetto.

On one side you have the all the wowwie zowie windowy programs, most of which are written, for no good technical reason, in C. On the other hand you have thousands of useful Perl/Python/Java programs that rarely get used because they have command line interfaces.

If we really want to harness the power of Gnome, then we need to make it easier to write Gnome programs in the most popular languages that Gnome supports. These languages are scripting languages.

Scripting exclusively for the command line almost made sense 10 years ago. Old versions of scripting languages didn't really interface well with the Graphic User Interface (GUI) and Text User Interface (TUI) libraries. You often had to have completely separate interpreters for GUI and non GUI interfaces. Anyone remember perlx?

Now days that's bunk. Perl, Python and Java all have officially supported interfaces to GTK, and, in case you don't know, they're *MUCH* easier to use than the C interface. I'm talking an order of magnitude!

As for the TUI, how many tasks do server administrators do that would be made much easier with a simple curses interface?

Python includes a Curses interface by default (it's why I learned Python). Perl isn't too far behind with a very stable Curses package on CPAN. This could be added to any distribution in a matter of minutes. I'm not sure about Java, but if it doesn't exist it wouldn't take long to make one.

The point being, that we have to start pushing distributions to include text and graphic interface libraries with the languages they support, and give them the same status as the language. If the language is included by default, so are the GUI and TUI libraries. Don't let your hot Molly Ringwald fantasies blind you. The '80s are over. We need better interfaces.

Once the user base can depend on the libraries being there, we're going to open up Gnome to a whole to set of ideas. These new programmers greatly out number the current set of Gnome C programmers. They'll be able to fix user level problems that we hardcore programmers don't even know exist.

If you're convinced at this point, then start pestering Ubuntu. I think they're the closest to having all the pieces. Then we can go after Debian and then we'll gang up on Red Hat.

If you're not convinced, then let me over make my point with sort of a preemptive FAQ.

* We didn't do it last time, why do it now?


OK, you lead with an Ace.

First of all, modern bindings to the major scripting languages are dependable and stable. This wasn't true before.

Also, we're in a much more graphical time. Most users consider dropping to the command line a failure of the interface.

We need a bridge between the two.

* What if the bindings disappear?

The odds of the supported bindings disappearing any time soon is negligible. As for other bindings, if more people start using them, the more dependable they become. Does anyone really expect "vim" or "sendmail" to disappear any time soon?

* What's wrong with C?

Nothing, in it's place. If I were to suggest dropping all the scripting languages and doing everything in C, I'd be laughed off the Internet. Somehow we're supposed to believe that the argument is less absurd when you pop up a window.

* Distribution X has the bindings in the "Extras" section. What's wrong with that?


In the business world getting managers to allow "extras" on a system is a hard sell. Damn few middle managers get fired for failing to innovate.

Besides, if it's in it's own section then there must be something wrong with it. Right? Can I get back to you on that?

* You can get all those bindings at site X.com.

If the "Extra" argument is a hard sell, then the 3rd party site is a no-sale. They're right on this one.

A company pays for Red Hat license instead of using the free CentOs because it gives them someone to yell at if things go boom. If you depend on 3rd party software then you get sent to finger pointing hell.

I currently have a problem with my CentOS box at home. I'm using CentOS repositories and a few other reliable sites. Two sites depend on different versions of the same library. I can't upgrade until I find and remove the conflicting programs.

Run that past a manager and you'll be a Microsoft shop by the end of the day.

Besides, if the software is trustworthy and useful then it would be include with the distribution. Feel free to repeat this until your head explodes. It's what they do in corporateland.

* If you want to use the OS, learn the commands!

If you want to make me learn a bunch of esoteric commands, I'm using another OS!

Let's use the "chage" command as an example. It's a pretty simple command which I use about once a year. Every time I use it I have to look up the command flags, because I only use it once a year.

Now wrap it in a curses interface. I no longer have to use the man page. "chage-curses" pops up the user's info, lets me change it. It even uses a calendar to help me change the dates. It then munches up the interface changes into a command line call which make the actual changes.

Take it one step farther. I am a hot shot l33t Hax0r. I shouldn't be doing this peasant crap at all. I create "chage-gtk" in 30 lines of Perl, and now my helper monkey does all the chaging while I hack the cosmos.

* Surly you don't mean every scripting language?


Yep I do. For server admins the command line will live on forever. It's the easiest way to make bulk or automated changes.

Your average user isn't a server admin. We need to stop dressing them up like one and making them dance for us.

Every general purpose language that has a stable GUI and/or TUI and is already included in a distribution needs to have those bindings included. We need to show non-Linux users, and other programmers that we're serious bout getting out of the 1980s. That means that any general purpose language that can help us out needs to be embraced.

* What about languages that don't have stable GUI/TUI bindings?

Most of the popular languages have had stable bindings for years. Perl, Python and Java all have officially supported GTK/Gnome bindings.

If a language only has a stable TUI, but not GUI binding, then just include the TUI. If it has no stable bindings at all, then it remains command line only until it gets it's act together.

* Some languages have GUI/TUI bindings that are a bitch to make into packages.


Let the developer of both the bindings and the language know that that's the reason the binding isn't being included. Most will gladly fix their code or provide the distributions with packages.

* Jeez, our distribution is getting awfully big.

One: The graphic libraries shouldn't really be that big, they're just interfaces to existing libraries.

Two: This move is important! If going from a command line interface to a graphic interface is only being held back by a pack of Luddites, then Linux doesn't deserve to play with the big boys.

Three: This is also an advantage that we seem to be afraid to exploit. Does any other OS come with, by default, an easy way to create useful window based programs just using a text editor? We shouldn't be hiding this feature, we should be shoving it down peoples throats!

* Why should we include fooscript when real programmers use barscript?

You're an idiot.

This isn't about the size of your digital penis, it's about removing completely artificial barriers from the users. Gnome doesn't really serve the clever user well. This problem is trivial to fix. We need to do so in the most inclusive way.

If Perl gets the job done for you, great! If you like Python, no problem. Someone at the Guile compound must have got laid because it's perked right up in the last few months. Guess what? It has both a curses and Gnome interface. Welcome to the club Guile! (Assuming your bindings don't suck.)

* Real programmer program in C.

Actually they don't. Most casual programmers start by looking at a program that almost does what they want, and then pick at it. If the program is a script, it's much easier to play with.

For the inquisitive user, in real terms, modern computers are less powerful then they were in the days of Dos and Unix. Back then a curious user who had an itch, could scratch it with a batch file or shell script. This new command was on par with anything else on the system. If it was generally useful they could email it to anyone else and they could use the new command too. Now days a clever user has to either waste monkey cycles writing in C or they have to have other users download the script-gui library package.

Pithy Summary


This is a stupid pointless wall, and it needs to come down!

2 comments:

Tim said...

This is a great blog post. I didn't understand the roadblocks to some of the gui's in linux until now! I'm a novice semi professional VB 2005 programmer (I understand the oddity of mixing the labels) and a student of Java. What language and gui package would you suggest for me to start programming apps with guis in Ubuntu? Thanks in advance. I will provide clarification just say the word. TIA

Dale Wiles said...

I'd start with Python and GTK for Unbuntu.

Python isn't without it's arbitrary annoyances but it's popular and well supported. And it's interface to GTK is enough like C's that it wont be a show stopper if you ever move to C.